gretta — I have been thinking of (and missing) you. I appreciate you being so open about your HF diagnosis and admire your commitment to continuing to inspire so many people — we need it more than ever these days.
Reading With Or Without God is what first brought you into our life and having your current perspective on its key parts would be such a gift gretta! We didn’t know you during your trial but I am touched by the concern expressed by those who did. Perhaps there are learnings from your trial experience that may inform your reflections on WOWG vs. having to relive it all. But I agree with others — do what brings you most joy and we will eagerly engage with anything you choose to produce! Love you.
Jana, thank you so much for your continued engagement and your generous response. I am just beginning to tally the current responses and I think it is going to, no matter what, end up being something that brings me joy. I am so glad that, one day many years ago, you picked up my book and we came to know one another.
I write a few comments Gretta ... first I appreciate receiving this enote with your fulsome update.
I can mostly wish you well and hope my singular efforts from here in Victoria might add something substantial to the issues you're working on. I could write lots (I have cancer in my gut zone and have had radical prostatectomy. Happily I've learned that my PSA numbers are "undetectable" (a good sign I'm told) So each and every day is a gift. However I'm writing too much and others may want to get onto this link. Be well as you're able my friend. Dale Perkins
Thank you for being in touch, Dale. You sorted my visit to Victoria so beautiful those many years ago and I'm sorry that you're experiencing health issues too! I trust we'll stay connected and that the project provides us some new moments of engagement.
It is ironic that a woman with such a big heart for the world should have problems with her physical heart. I hope you have the energy to fulfill your ambitions of podcasting, or of writing your present theological and philosophical views. I wish you joy and much love on your fascinating journey.
Thank you so much, Terry. This heart, like so many, carries the challenges we are facing with much lament. That's why I have always found it best to be in community, to do the heavy lifting with a room full of hearts whose power for love and courage is thereby always elevated exponentially.
You gave me pause, and I had to figure out how to score firsts and seconds! Despite their seeing to have completely different topics, there is so much that combines the two projects that trying to do them separately may prove impossible!
Hello love. You have always had a piece of my heart since we first met almost 26 years ago. I’m writing now because my adhd brain will not remember once I’ve closed this.
As for the suggestions of legacy. I like the thought of reading With or Without. I still have PTSD from your trial. Occaisionally, I find myself humming “Hold On” because that’s what got me thru those days. I hated seeing you in the pain and angst that this days brought.
Revisiting your thoughts and words from 17 years ago with perspective of current days, recent ongoing around the world (including the isolation of the pandemic) and the new perspectives we all have learned along the way, I believe would be a great way of demonstrating the purpose of the book and the community that (I think) saw and continue to see the value of those words, an abundant blessing.
I hope that perspective, thoughts, words, ideas or whatever help.
Thank you, Donna. Your presence with so many from West Hill at the hearing was deeply meaningful and lifted my spirits during those days. And it provided the fierce strength I needed to stare the accusations down and continue to speak my truth. But I, too, know it will be a challenge to revisit that and weed through the ignorance and arrogance that was expressed in the room you and the rest of West Hill were barred from entering. (As I recall, you weren't allowed to use the washroom, either, were you? Insane.) Thanks for your thoughts. Seventeen years is a long time but twenty-six is even longer.
I am following you because I recall Spong’s references to your work in some of his books. I will vote for With or Without God since all consider these questions one way or another. That said, I am not a podcast person but will follow any passing comments with interest. And perhaps the discussion will drive me to the book.
Most important, you have a clear diagnosis and a course of treatment that provides some relief and a space for growth and exploration. The journey, and your plans to share it enriches us all. Best.
Thank you, Peter. I miss Jack almost every day. There was a groundedness in him that made you feel so comfortable and it was he who brought my work to the attention of his publisher. When my dad died, he offered to be my dad when I needed one. And, while walking together a few minutes later, we came upon a swing and, no lie, I hopped on and he pushed! A genuine hero, in my opinion, but not one who had been changed at all by the reception to his work or the fame he achieved.
If I am allowed to print large segments of the book, I will make transcripts available for those who don't do podcasts!
I have been mulling over how I should react to your frank sharing of your health issues and how to tell you how much your books, prayers and blogs have meant to me over the years. I have come up with nothing more than how very sorry I am that you are not well and how grateful I am for your beautiful, sensitive writing. So often, you say what I have been feeling but I didn't have the words. I'm desperately searching for the words that you would use .
Jim, that is very thoughtful of you. Thank you for the kind words you've shared. They mean anything and everything that something else you might have come up with might have conveyed.
And one final quote of mine, I think has been helpful to me and might be to you. I cannot understand why the Bible has remain such a strong word for word type book. It was written by people thousands of years ago, who didn’t know where the son went at night among other things they didn’t know That’s why we need a rewriting of the Bible or a new one entirely.
Sorry about some of them miss spoken words in my response, but it doesn’t seem that this program has been trained on a Mississippi accent. So when a word seems to be wrong, just put in the word that you seem is right and it’s probably the one I said.
Greta, this is Jim High from Tupelo Mississippi. I have read all three of your books and love them. I was so glad to find you during my transition out of Christianity. I would hope that you would make the podcast about the width or without God book. But I also think the crowd would be interesting, but it would make me mad because of what the church was trying to do to you and they’re thinking that they were right and you were wrong. There’s no writing wrong about life. You’re either do or do not. Christianity needs help, but it will not change because as you know about half of the people in the church, don’t want to change. I argue with my brother all the time about the afterlife that he thinks he’s going to. He can’t explain what it is, and I tell him that would be horrible for me to think that I was going somewhere and didn’t know what it was but the truth is is we live one life and then it’s over when I say it’s over I mean it’s really over because we’re dead. We are only what our brain makes us and when our brain is no longer alive, we aren’t alive and we do not any longer exist anywhere. To me that makes sense of life we live much more valuable and much more enjoyable actually, I’m currently 85 years old and I traveled the world and have friends had friends in Australia, Sweden, France, and a few other places around the world. The rest of the world Christianity is much further along the change road then we are here in America, but it takes 500 years to make a big huge change in peoples thinking and we only about 100 years into our. That’s why the work you have done and we’ll do with this podcast will be so important. They are things that we can hold onto about Christianity, mainly the things that Jesus said for people to do and how to relate to each other. The work of the Jesus seminar has been very helpful in that regard but when you tell people that only 18% of Jesus is red letter words in that Bible or words, he actually said they can’t quite grasp for that. But I’ve gotten to the point when I hear somebody say that mama and daddy are looking down at us and they’re pleased with what we’re doing. It just makes me mad that there are people that are that dumb. The more we learn about our universe the more strange it becomes. I’ve come to the belief that it is eternal and infinite two terms that don’t fit well with scientist because they are hard to define or understand. Let me close by saying hold on to life. We need you Greta and more people like you. Thanks for all you have done and we’ll do with this new project.
There is a lot of sense I.e. truth in what you say
What is the problem here? The separation needs to be made between the person of Jesus and Christianity, two very different entities.
Some of those big questions we can,t answer. Did he rise from the dead? Even some theologians are unsure about that. What were the Bible writers trying to prove about the resurrection? Does it matter?
Christianity as a set of beliefs, by and large has lost its way. We need people like Gretta in this modern turmoil to help sort the wheat from the chaff.
Jim, thank you for your comments and for the work you've done to find the integrity that Christianity holds for those who engage it through a contemporary lens. Holding it to the biblical account simply does not hold and has such little to say to contemporary life and the existential challenges we are facing. I love your Mississippi accent and understood it perfectly! Thanks for your thoughts.
I have only just found you today. You posted a porn of yours (Sunlight) in the comments and it touched my heart. I have had similar longings and found the mystical through things like this as well. Thank you so much for sharing it with us, to me. I followed you over to your page to see if I could find more.
I am so sorrowful about your diagnosis and what you have to carry now. Life isn’t fair sometimes and often hardship comes to the purest people.
I prefer your first idea. I think it would satisfy those who have read the book and introduce your work to newcomers who are not familiar with you and your work (like me).
Thanks for sharing so much of yourself through your writing, and I’ll sending intentions for wellness and peace.
It is lovely to welcome you, Ellie. Thank you for coming over from Sez' blog. She has sustained me through some very difficult times and I have wrapped my heart in her words when experiencing joy, sorrow, fury, and delight. Thank you for the support and for responding to my query. I hope we travel together for a long time.
And, in case anyone hasn't seen Ellie's correction above, it was a poem I posted, not porn! :-)
As interesting as both subjects you suggest might be, I think even more interesting would be your take on how you see the future unravelling for Christians. Will we ever see Jack Spong/s New Christianity for a New World? What might it look like? How might the language of the liturgy change to reflect a new vision of God and a new understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven? In a way, it would be a legacy project for you, as well as a very important guide for future theologians and a way for future readers to see you as the visionary you are. It would be a gift to the future.
Thank you, Georg. This is extremely important and a topic I often ponder. As I work it out, I will certainly keep this broader, future-oriented possibility alive. Am already wondering if it couldn't be the focus of either of the topics. Thanks again for connecting and offering a suggestion.
Dear gretta, I understand the urgency with which you wrote so I will cut to the chase!
My preference would be for you to revisit With or Without God to explore where continuing that journey takes you and to challenge us. Progressive Christianity (PC) needs another jolt if we’re going to maintain and build communities. With church attendance in major decline and the rise of agnosticism and atheism we need new reasons to gather in nonaligned communities. PC hasn’t really grappled with Honest to God and its implications as it continues to use the old language.
I know West Hill is a values based community and that’s a theme you could develop. What I’m wondering is whether West Hill’s VisionWorks could be explored to inspire the building of new communities where existing churches are failing. If after you have done that then take up the heresy trial. But please ponder With or Without god.
Jolt? Seriously, John, you don't equate my work with a "jolt" do you? ;-)
Truth is, of course, that it was never a jolt at West Hill as it evolved out of the work of members of the community, despite some of them, ultimately, determining that others of them had "gone too far". So, I think you're in line with Georg who responded just before you: looking at what is coming next and how the vision, one that seemed so promising in the last few decades, might become real. And you're suggesting that could be done through an examination of WoWG. I agree that anything I do must address the future. Thanks so much for your response.
Hi gretta, very glad to hear about your diagnosis and the improvement you got from meds, though obviously very sad about the seriousness of the diagnosis!
I actually favour your 2nd suggestion, about the heresy trial. The book is already out there, the trial would be new.
Thanks, Dan. That I have the materials from the trial is extraordinary. The body examining my beliefs did not record anything, as I noted in the blog. And their decision to find my beliefs, and therefore, my ministry, unsuitable was done without anyone in the wider church knowing what happened. This would provide that wider opportunity.
My heart goes out to you. Remember that so many people respect and love you. As for the vote, I vote for BOTH! But if you must only do one, I vote for the heresy trial!
POEM!!!!
I did have a little laugh about that one!
gretta — I have been thinking of (and missing) you. I appreciate you being so open about your HF diagnosis and admire your commitment to continuing to inspire so many people — we need it more than ever these days.
Reading With Or Without God is what first brought you into our life and having your current perspective on its key parts would be such a gift gretta! We didn’t know you during your trial but I am touched by the concern expressed by those who did. Perhaps there are learnings from your trial experience that may inform your reflections on WOWG vs. having to relive it all. But I agree with others — do what brings you most joy and we will eagerly engage with anything you choose to produce! Love you.
Jana, thank you so much for your continued engagement and your generous response. I am just beginning to tally the current responses and I think it is going to, no matter what, end up being something that brings me joy. I am so glad that, one day many years ago, you picked up my book and we came to know one another.
I write a few comments Gretta ... first I appreciate receiving this enote with your fulsome update.
I can mostly wish you well and hope my singular efforts from here in Victoria might add something substantial to the issues you're working on. I could write lots (I have cancer in my gut zone and have had radical prostatectomy. Happily I've learned that my PSA numbers are "undetectable" (a good sign I'm told) So each and every day is a gift. However I'm writing too much and others may want to get onto this link. Be well as you're able my friend. Dale Perkins
Thank you for being in touch, Dale. You sorted my visit to Victoria so beautiful those many years ago and I'm sorry that you're experiencing health issues too! I trust we'll stay connected and that the project provides us some new moments of engagement.
It is ironic that a woman with such a big heart for the world should have problems with her physical heart. I hope you have the energy to fulfill your ambitions of podcasting, or of writing your present theological and philosophical views. I wish you joy and much love on your fascinating journey.
Thank you so much, Terry. This heart, like so many, carries the challenges we are facing with much lament. That's why I have always found it best to be in community, to do the heavy lifting with a room full of hearts whose power for love and courage is thereby always elevated exponentially.
Thanks for putting this out there. I like both your ideas. Still I think I like the first one best and then the second one.
I relate to what you are going through health wise. I have similar issues. Take good care.
You gave me pause, and I had to figure out how to score firsts and seconds! Despite their seeing to have completely different topics, there is so much that combines the two projects that trying to do them separately may prove impossible!
Hello love. You have always had a piece of my heart since we first met almost 26 years ago. I’m writing now because my adhd brain will not remember once I’ve closed this.
As for the suggestions of legacy. I like the thought of reading With or Without. I still have PTSD from your trial. Occaisionally, I find myself humming “Hold On” because that’s what got me thru those days. I hated seeing you in the pain and angst that this days brought.
Revisiting your thoughts and words from 17 years ago with perspective of current days, recent ongoing around the world (including the isolation of the pandemic) and the new perspectives we all have learned along the way, I believe would be a great way of demonstrating the purpose of the book and the community that (I think) saw and continue to see the value of those words, an abundant blessing.
I hope that perspective, thoughts, words, ideas or whatever help.
Sending huge hugs your way.
Thank you, Donna. Your presence with so many from West Hill at the hearing was deeply meaningful and lifted my spirits during those days. And it provided the fierce strength I needed to stare the accusations down and continue to speak my truth. But I, too, know it will be a challenge to revisit that and weed through the ignorance and arrogance that was expressed in the room you and the rest of West Hill were barred from entering. (As I recall, you weren't allowed to use the washroom, either, were you? Insane.) Thanks for your thoughts. Seventeen years is a long time but twenty-six is even longer.
I am following you because I recall Spong’s references to your work in some of his books. I will vote for With or Without God since all consider these questions one way or another. That said, I am not a podcast person but will follow any passing comments with interest. And perhaps the discussion will drive me to the book.
Most important, you have a clear diagnosis and a course of treatment that provides some relief and a space for growth and exploration. The journey, and your plans to share it enriches us all. Best.
Thank you, Peter. I miss Jack almost every day. There was a groundedness in him that made you feel so comfortable and it was he who brought my work to the attention of his publisher. When my dad died, he offered to be my dad when I needed one. And, while walking together a few minutes later, we came upon a swing and, no lie, I hopped on and he pushed! A genuine hero, in my opinion, but not one who had been changed at all by the reception to his work or the fame he achieved.
If I am allowed to print large segments of the book, I will make transcripts available for those who don't do podcasts!
Dear Gretta
I have been mulling over how I should react to your frank sharing of your health issues and how to tell you how much your books, prayers and blogs have meant to me over the years. I have come up with nothing more than how very sorry I am that you are not well and how grateful I am for your beautiful, sensitive writing. So often, you say what I have been feeling but I didn't have the words. I'm desperately searching for the words that you would use .
Sincerely
Jim Abel
Jim, that is very thoughtful of you. Thank you for the kind words you've shared. They mean anything and everything that something else you might have come up with might have conveyed.
And one final quote of mine, I think has been helpful to me and might be to you. I cannot understand why the Bible has remain such a strong word for word type book. It was written by people thousands of years ago, who didn’t know where the son went at night among other things they didn’t know That’s why we need a rewriting of the Bible or a new one entirely.
Sorry about some of them miss spoken words in my response, but it doesn’t seem that this program has been trained on a Mississippi accent. So when a word seems to be wrong, just put in the word that you seem is right and it’s probably the one I said.
Greta, this is Jim High from Tupelo Mississippi. I have read all three of your books and love them. I was so glad to find you during my transition out of Christianity. I would hope that you would make the podcast about the width or without God book. But I also think the crowd would be interesting, but it would make me mad because of what the church was trying to do to you and they’re thinking that they were right and you were wrong. There’s no writing wrong about life. You’re either do or do not. Christianity needs help, but it will not change because as you know about half of the people in the church, don’t want to change. I argue with my brother all the time about the afterlife that he thinks he’s going to. He can’t explain what it is, and I tell him that would be horrible for me to think that I was going somewhere and didn’t know what it was but the truth is is we live one life and then it’s over when I say it’s over I mean it’s really over because we’re dead. We are only what our brain makes us and when our brain is no longer alive, we aren’t alive and we do not any longer exist anywhere. To me that makes sense of life we live much more valuable and much more enjoyable actually, I’m currently 85 years old and I traveled the world and have friends had friends in Australia, Sweden, France, and a few other places around the world. The rest of the world Christianity is much further along the change road then we are here in America, but it takes 500 years to make a big huge change in peoples thinking and we only about 100 years into our. That’s why the work you have done and we’ll do with this podcast will be so important. They are things that we can hold onto about Christianity, mainly the things that Jesus said for people to do and how to relate to each other. The work of the Jesus seminar has been very helpful in that regard but when you tell people that only 18% of Jesus is red letter words in that Bible or words, he actually said they can’t quite grasp for that. But I’ve gotten to the point when I hear somebody say that mama and daddy are looking down at us and they’re pleased with what we’re doing. It just makes me mad that there are people that are that dumb. The more we learn about our universe the more strange it becomes. I’ve come to the belief that it is eternal and infinite two terms that don’t fit well with scientist because they are hard to define or understand. Let me close by saying hold on to life. We need you Greta and more people like you. Thanks for all you have done and we’ll do with this new project.
Hi Jim from Tupelo,
There is a lot of sense I.e. truth in what you say
What is the problem here? The separation needs to be made between the person of Jesus and Christianity, two very different entities.
Some of those big questions we can,t answer. Did he rise from the dead? Even some theologians are unsure about that. What were the Bible writers trying to prove about the resurrection? Does it matter?
Christianity as a set of beliefs, by and large has lost its way. We need people like Gretta in this modern turmoil to help sort the wheat from the chaff.
Catherine, Essex.
Jim, thank you for your comments and for the work you've done to find the integrity that Christianity holds for those who engage it through a contemporary lens. Holding it to the biblical account simply does not hold and has such little to say to contemporary life and the existential challenges we are facing. I love your Mississippi accent and understood it perfectly! Thanks for your thoughts.
Dear Greta,
I have only just found you today. You posted a porn of yours (Sunlight) in the comments and it touched my heart. I have had similar longings and found the mystical through things like this as well. Thank you so much for sharing it with us, to me. I followed you over to your page to see if I could find more.
I am so sorrowful about your diagnosis and what you have to carry now. Life isn’t fair sometimes and often hardship comes to the purest people.
I prefer your first idea. I think it would satisfy those who have read the book and introduce your work to newcomers who are not familiar with you and your work (like me).
Thanks for sharing so much of yourself through your writing, and I’ll sending intentions for wellness and peace.
It is lovely to welcome you, Ellie. Thank you for coming over from Sez' blog. She has sustained me through some very difficult times and I have wrapped my heart in her words when experiencing joy, sorrow, fury, and delight. Thank you for the support and for responding to my query. I hope we travel together for a long time.
And, in case anyone hasn't seen Ellie's correction above, it was a poem I posted, not porn! :-)
Dear Greta,
As interesting as both subjects you suggest might be, I think even more interesting would be your take on how you see the future unravelling for Christians. Will we ever see Jack Spong/s New Christianity for a New World? What might it look like? How might the language of the liturgy change to reflect a new vision of God and a new understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven? In a way, it would be a legacy project for you, as well as a very important guide for future theologians and a way for future readers to see you as the visionary you are. It would be a gift to the future.
With love,
George Duffield
Thank you, Georg. This is extremely important and a topic I often ponder. As I work it out, I will certainly keep this broader, future-oriented possibility alive. Am already wondering if it couldn't be the focus of either of the topics. Thanks again for connecting and offering a suggestion.
Dear gretta, I understand the urgency with which you wrote so I will cut to the chase!
My preference would be for you to revisit With or Without God to explore where continuing that journey takes you and to challenge us. Progressive Christianity (PC) needs another jolt if we’re going to maintain and build communities. With church attendance in major decline and the rise of agnosticism and atheism we need new reasons to gather in nonaligned communities. PC hasn’t really grappled with Honest to God and its implications as it continues to use the old language.
I know West Hill is a values based community and that’s a theme you could develop. What I’m wondering is whether West Hill’s VisionWorks could be explored to inspire the building of new communities where existing churches are failing. If after you have done that then take up the heresy trial. But please ponder With or Without god.
Gratefully, John
Jolt? Seriously, John, you don't equate my work with a "jolt" do you? ;-)
Truth is, of course, that it was never a jolt at West Hill as it evolved out of the work of members of the community, despite some of them, ultimately, determining that others of them had "gone too far". So, I think you're in line with Georg who responded just before you: looking at what is coming next and how the vision, one that seemed so promising in the last few decades, might become real. And you're suggesting that could be done through an examination of WoWG. I agree that anything I do must address the future. Thanks so much for your response.
If we don’t address the future we have nothing to pass on! We desperately need someone to help us do that thinking so we can experiment. With love!
Thank you for your belief in my power to accomplish that, John! Thinking such a puzzle through would be a challenge but a worthy one, indeed.
Hi gretta, very glad to hear about your diagnosis and the improvement you got from meds, though obviously very sad about the seriousness of the diagnosis!
I actually favour your 2nd suggestion, about the heresy trial. The book is already out there, the trial would be new.
Much love.
Thanks, Dan. That I have the materials from the trial is extraordinary. The body examining my beliefs did not record anything, as I noted in the blog. And their decision to find my beliefs, and therefore, my ministry, unsuitable was done without anyone in the wider church knowing what happened. This would provide that wider opportunity.
My heart goes out to you. Remember that so many people respect and love you. As for the vote, I vote for BOTH! But if you must only do one, I vote for the heresy trial!
Thanks, Mike. And thanks for the reminder. I feel very privileged to have so many people who are willing to engage about this next step.